DB
Doris Beck
9 years ago
Wishal lamin, if you are interested in the relationship of philosophy to science and religion may I suggest you read this article, http://p2c.com/students/sho... and then go on to read more of Dr Durston's blog posts. You will find them very thought provoking.
WL
wishal lamin
9 years ago
Epistemology and methaphysics
WL
wishal lamin
9 years ago
The relation of philosophy to science and religion by biography author Dr k.d. Ramsiej Dr.B.P.Tripathi
Hi Tongriang, thanks for your desire to investigate God through scientific study. I am no expert in this area but I would suggest that since God is Creator of all things, there isn't any area of study that will not reveal His nature if you are willing to acknowledge it. I base that on Romans 1:19-20 truth that what can be known about God is plain in what He has made. Are there any specialities that you are specifically interested in?
good article and good comments on this thread thank you to all who post on here
To
Tongriang
10 years ago
WAOW! I am blessed by this teaching. I am a science educator and a christian I must add. What possible field of studies for a doctoral research can I take to intergrateboth science and religion?
Tong (Nigeria), Centre for Continuing Education, Theological College of Northern Nigeria
Subhankar Zac, say what you will about Religion, but the fact remains that Christianity is more than the belief in a god or in a group of gods (Merriam Webster); it is having a relationship with the Almighty Himself.
SZ
Subhankar Zac
10 years ago
The first 10 searches on Google on the topic of "Science Vs Religion" automatically translates to "Science Vs Christianity".
Since NO, NOT A SINGLE RELIGION EXISTS outside the 3 Abrahamic ones apparently in the west.
The west has been classifying Religion as Christianity for a long time, though now for the sake of inclusivity, Judaism and Islam also are SOMETIMES included, but that's it.
I m curious that in a world where there are thousands upon thousands of religions, why only Abrahamic ones?
Science is much easily compatible with Buddhism, Confucianism, Religions of Hinduism, Taoism, Jainism, etc
But rarely are these brought up in a nation where non Christians occupy less than 5% of the population.
The western understanding of God is simply Black and White... There's a Invisible omnipotent God with one divine son, many prophets and millions of celestial beings that no other idea Is easily immersible in their minds.
Modern War machines seeming new to The west now are openly described in eastern faiths.
Brahmastra comes as nuclear bomb, Brahmashirastra becomes a hydrogen bomb along with heat seeking missiles and other weapons.
Stories of flying machines used by celestial beings are given in Egyptian faiths, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.
Yogic and meditative power that can bring out energies of the universe through the bodies are illustrated in many ancient indian books.
Early form of medicine without any side effects called Ayurveda comes out from the Vedas.
Atheistic faiths exists in Hinduism with many schools.
So don't tell us science and Religion can't exist. Perhaps in the monoideal form of belief in the west, bit elsewhere it openly does.
It is only after the Vedas that celestial events and occurrences even the idea of the milky way existed in India.
For Tom on January 18, 2016 at 4:33 pm
"And if the "theory" hasn't been proven after thousands? of years,..." - What makes you think that it has not been proven. The book has given three different proofs with many examples for each approaches.
Bible has two different interpretations: (1) money power interpretation and (2) Vedic interpretation. The Vedic interpretation is same as the interpretation given in the soul theory book. So in that sense Bible says the same theory. The money power interpretation is same as the mainstream interpretation. Hinduism also has the same two interpretations.
For: Jamie on January 18, 2016 at 4:44 pm
"What is the difference between God and the soul?" - I thought I have discussed these things. But I will repeat.
The environment of earth is filled with oxygen and nitrogen molecules. All oxygen molecules are same but they are all different molecules, they have different identities. If you point a pin to the sky, it will hit an oxygen molecule, if you point in another place it will hit another molecule. Both molecules have same properties, but they are two different molecules.
In the same way the entire universe is filled with root material and root cause. Both are subtle particles invisible to human senses but visible to yogis. This root cause is the soul. Every object is made by one such soul from using many such root materials. Thus you are created by your soul and I am created by my soul. Our souls are different, just like two oxygen molecules.
So, we are not created by God, but by our own souls. Same is true for all objects of the universe.
For: Jamie on January 18, 2016 at 2:19 pm
"...there is no Mind behind Destiny." - What makes you think that there is no mind behind destiny? Every object in the universe is created by its own individual soul - didn't we discuss that before? All souls are same. Therefore all souls have mind. This is discussed very thoroughly in the soul theory chapter in the book at https://theoryofsouls.wordp...
Can't help but chuckle every time I read, "It's discussed in the soul theory chapter." If it's only a theory, why would anyone take it seriously? And if the "theory" hasn't been proven after thousands? of years, that would seem to indicate it's not very plausible. I guess it's like the "theory" of evolution which can't be proven either.
As I look around I see too much purpose and intentionality to believe that there is no Mind behind Destiny. The Bible says that God does have plans for us and is leading us in accordance to those plans. He said, "I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you a hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)
Destiny without a Mind guiding it is chaos and meaningless. There is within each of us a sense that there must be a purpose and meaning to life. A random Destiny does not give us meaning but only existence. My heart tells me that there is more to life than that.
God's will for my life can be known because He makes it known to me. The Bible repeatedly talks of God's leading in our lives; that He cares for each one of us and wants the best for us. The great promise is, "In all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to HIs purpose." (Romans 8:28) I would much prefer following a purposeful God rather than be a piece of flotsam in the meaningless cycles of purposeless Destiny.
For: Jamie on January 16, 2016 at 7:53 am
"Plans indicate a mind. If the Law of Destiny exists then it presupposes that there is a mind behind the plan. How do you identify that mind if not as 'God'?" – The following is a long response. Please read it in increments.
Very good question! I have not found any documented answer. I did not read Vedas. It takes about 10 years to read Vedas and probably several life times to comprehend it unless you are yogi. I am not sure if the answer is there or not. But Vedas say clearly that there is no God and explains also why. Soul theory book describes this subject.
One clear answer is - destiny can be predicted precisely by yogis or persons with divine vision, acquired through yogic meditation or directly by birth. You can see destiny by your own eyes if you become such a yogi. There are many such examples of precise predictions by many famous people all over the world and well documented in literature. If something can be predicted then there is no God, it is only destiny. When you throw a stone, we can predict where exactly it will go, and how it will travel. How can we do that - because it is a simple system, and we know the equations?
In India, there are about million palm leaf booklets which predicts precise destiny of that many people living now in our world. If you go to any one of such centers you will know your past, present, and future. The book on soul theory gives some examples of such predictions. Some western people have also visited such centers. These books were written probably 10 thousand years back, if not 100 thousand years. The Soul Theory book also has examples where a yogi predicts what you will say during the next 10 minutes.
There is a chapter on memory in the soul theory book. It says all the things that has happened in the universe, is happening now, and will happen in future are already programmed in the memory of the universe. You probably have seen some mechanical musical instruments with drums that continuously rotate and repeat the same music all the time. The memory of the universe is just like that drum and it plays them all the time repeatedly.
Vedas say that there is Bramaha day and Bramaha night each of about 8.6 billion years long. This is the largest period of all events. The universe becomes dark at the end of the day and remains dark for the entire night and then begins again at the end of the night. All the things are repeated again in the exact same way it happened this time. That means you and I will be communicating this same thing again 17.2 billion years later. German philosopher Nietzsche calls it eternal recurrence. The Bible verse I quoted before refers to this recurrence as well as recurrence due to reincarnation.
A corporation also has a precise plan, and that is created by the simultaneity law, defined by all people of that corporation. In the same way the simultaneity law of nature defines the global destiny. An equation for such a law has been derived in the book on soul theory in three different chapters: destiny, memory, and conservation.
Thus plan does not mean existence of God. It only means a law of nature. And nature always demonstrates its all laws including the plan. This plan cannot be changed by anyone including such God. Destiny and God are contradictory concepts.
For: Jamie on January 14, 2016 at 4:13 pm
"Let me ask you, do you believe that humans are influenced positively and negatively by spiritual forces?" - Destiny is a law of nature. Everything happens because of past, present, and future plans. There is no such thing as god or devil under the frame work of destiny.
"...they had memories from previous lives that they never had lived?" - Most convincing case is the gun shot wound case. Doctors have performed medical operations on such child and found the exact same bullet path inside the body of the baby as was in the man of the previous birth.
For: Jamie on January 14, 2016 at 2:54 pm
"So reading about Yogis who are able to create light, generate heat, foretell the future, or create and dissolve tumours does not lead me to assume that the power by which they preform these acts is necessarily good." - A knife is a tool that can be used to kill people and also can be used to chop food. How you use your yogic power depends on the yogis. Most of the yogis can heal people from all kinds of diseases and even from death. A yogi can exchange his old body with a young dead body and continue living with that young body.
You wrote - "The author of Theory of Souls looks at some phenomenon and interprets it in light of his beliefs of reincarnation and the power of the soul; there are, however, other possible interpretations for those phenomenon." People will highly appreciate your other interpretations of reincarnation examples if you can publish them in peer reviewed journals.
For: Jamie on January 14, 2016 at 9:48 am
You wrote - "Origen's teaching on the pre-existence of souls was rejected by the Council of Constantinople in 553 AD because it did not conform to what was is the Bible." - I am glad that you admitted that some text related to reincarnation was removed from Bible. Why it was removed is a another debate.
Next thing you should investigate if reincarnation is really a law of nature. The book on soul theory has proofs of reincarnation from three independent line of thoughts: Direct examples provided by nature, Yogic Power examples, and Destiny theory examples. The book has three chapters, one for each of them. I know it will be difficult for you to read them. So, our discussions should be stopped now. The book is free, you probably know that.
I will end with the statement that Ayn Rand said – "Truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it." Interestingly, we all reincarnate only to learn the truth. You will never be happy unless you know the truth. There will be one life in our chain of reincarnation when we will know the truth. Seeking truth is a personal quest. No one can teach any one the truth. Moreover, we are guided by the destiny law. Our plans for this life is defined.
Jamie on January 13, 2016 at 8:17 am
As I have mentioned, I know your logic of thinking. This is the mainstream view of Bible and also Math, Science and economics. I do not believe in mainstream ideas. They are all wrong, manipulated, and controlled by money, which is false. You cannot create truth using something false like money.
I will ask you again to verify the fact, from internet, that reincarnation was removed from Bible. If you cannot find such articles then let me know, I will do the searching for you. The above book also has many references. What you see in Bible now, is the part left after removal of reincarnation.
For: Jamie on January 12, 2016 at 4:06 pm
Laws of nature are the only truth. The nature has the unique characteristics that it provides the proofs of all its laws. All you have to know is - how to observe the nature to find these laws, just like Galileo did. These laws are: reincarnation, destiny, soul theory, eternal recurrence, birth-maturity-death process, yogic powers etc. Nature provides proofs of all of them. The book on soul theory has provided many such proofs. These laws are well documented in Vedas. Since Vedas were known all over the world, you will find all of those laws in all the religions of the world, including Bible. You can find destiny in Bible. There are many examples of Yogic powers in Bible. Judaism describes many high level yogic powers. There are many high level yogis all over the world even now.
Did you verify that reincarnation was removed from Bible? If not, then please verify that from the internet or read the page from the soul theory book. Once you verify that then ask the questions: when it was removed, why it was removed, who removed them, was it possible to remove completely etc? Note that the truth cannot be told even now. If you do then you will face the same fate as did Galileo.
Bible has all the correct things, but as I have said, you have to interpret them correctly to match all the above laws of nature. Just like Vedas do not have God, both Bible and Gita also can be interpreted to indicate that there is no God. Such interpretations will make the books consistent, understandable, and meaningful.
For: Jamie on January 12, 2016 at 1:38 pm
Your line of thinking is perfectly alright for me. Mainstream Bible follows that line. Mainstream science also follows that similar line. But there is no truth in the mainstream that you must understand. Mainstream is completely manipulated by money and money power.
Money is false, because it is not an object of nature, money neither grows on trees nor can be mined from underneath the earth. How can you create truth using something false like money? You cannot. Note that for the same reason real numbers are also false and therefore entire math and physics are false. Only engineering is correct; math, physics, economics are all wrong.
Just like we cannot know that earth is moving, sitting on earth, similarly we cannot know that we are all reincarnated souls for millions of years. You need special, out of the mainstream methods, to know about the motion of earth and similarly about reincarnations, destiny, yogic powers, soul theory etc.
Ayn Rand said - "Truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it." Only 1% knows the truth. The book on soul theory is an effort to bring that truth. I do not belong to that 1% community. But that truth is on the internet. If you do a sincere research you will be able to detect that.
For Jamie on January 12, 2016 at 10:34 am
There is lot of research materials on reincarnation in Bible. It is a well known fact that reincarnation was deleted from Bible. A little search on Google will convince you. The book on soul theory has one page on the subject of reincarnation in Bible at https://theoryofsouls.wordp... Even after removal from Bible, there are still many verses which can be understood properly only if you consider reincarnation. Here is one example: Ecclesiastes 1:9 says - "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
Religions are different now because of its control by money and money power. If you interpret all religions in the way Vedas are described you will find all religions are same and consistent with Vedas. There was a time when Vedas were known all over the world. There is no God in Vedas. Therefore there is no God in Hinduism and in Bible also. There is destiny in Vedas and in Bible. Clearly destiny and God are contradictory concepts. Therefore God cannot exist in Bible. The meaning of God has been distorted by money power.
Well IdPnSD, just because real numbers are infinite does not mean that they cannot be used to describe what is finite. Real numbers are a crucial tool to help us understand the world around us.
Now you also suggested that all religions are the same. On what evidence do you make that claim? My observation is that there are fundamental differences amongst religions. Even in your statement you suggest that while the Bible used to discuss reincarnation, it has been removed. I would welcome any evidence you have that reincarnation was ever a biblical concept, but if it has been removed then the religions that adhere to the Bible no longer include teaching on reincarnation and therefore are different from those that teach the eternal cycle of rebirth. Case in point, the Bible states, "each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment" (Hebrews 9:27); so as it is observed today--and for the years that this text has been a part of the Bible--there is no reincarnation in the Christian faith. Reincarnation is a fundamental part of Buddhist and Hindu religions (along with others), while in other religions like Christianity, reincarnation is rejected. So fundamentally these teachings are contradictory and cannot be harmonized into one religion.
There are many other examples of fundamental and contradictory differences between the understanding that religions have about the nature of God and how we relate to Him. To say that they are all the same ignores those fundamental contradictions. Trying to harmonize those differences does not make them the same but actually turns them into your religious beliefs. Thus you are being exclusive in your faith claims by saying that all religions are the same because they are all like yours and your religion is the only correct way to worship God. On what basis do you make those exclusive claims to truth?
For: Jamie on January 12, 2016 at 8:41 am
The total number of apples in the universe is finite. Everything in nature is bounded or finite. But real numbers are not bounded. Therefore nothing in nature can be described by real numbers. Moreover you can add only real numbers, you cannot add any other things. Two apples are never equal and therefore can never be added. Everything in nature is like apples and oranges, cannot be compared or equal.
Hi IdPnSD, thanks for your contribution to the conversation. If you are talking about volts, 3+4=5 but what if I am talking about apples? If I have 3 apples and add 4 I will have 7 apples. That seems to be an accurate observation of nature, wouldn't you agree?
HC
H Chris Ransford
10 years ago
May I submit this original contribution : bit.ly/1NfHqxs , previewing a book on the subject (soon out.)
Science is completely wrong. All religions are same and are correct. We must understand the difference between science and engineering. All engineering is correct. Engineering deals with nature, therefore they must be correct. Math and Physics do not deal with nature therefore they must all be wrong. For example 3+4=7 in math, but in nature 3+4=5, always, because nature is bounded and math is not. In this example 5 is the upper bound. If you have voltages, no matter how you add you cannot get more than 5 volts. Thus all of math and physics are wrong.
But all religions say the same thing - they talk about: Reincarnation, Destiny, Soul Theory, yogic powers, eternal recurrence etc. These are all valid subjects and nature gives proofs of all of them. Bible talks about destiny. Reincarnation was there in Bible, but was removed later. Yogic power is discussed in Bible. Judaism talks about high level yogic powers. There was a time when Vedas were known all over the world. You can see the influences of Vedas in all religions.
Jeff--
Please clarify your question. I'm not sure what you're asking.
what does religion stand to achieve in this?
Hi Paul. I have a question for you--
Who is being spoken of in Isaiah 53?
With regard to Amanda's point about Jesus being "proven" to not exist, that's absolutely nonsense. I'm an Orthodox Jew. I have absolutely NO skin in the game of whether or not Jesus existed. If we look at the historical evidence, we can see that there's a massive amount of evidence that Jesus existed. Just because a few fringe scholars say it isn't true doesn't mean it's so. Carrier, Price, et al. are the far left of scholarship, and their opinions shouldn't be seen as fact. They should be seen as what they are- a fringe position in scholarship.
There's a reason why Jesus is accepted as a historical person. Now, whether or not Jesus was the son of God and so on is another question. That's a faith position, not a position that history can really affirm. As a historian, I can tell you the following:
1. Jesus was born
2. He was baptized by John the Baptist
3. He gathered a group of followers and preached.
4. The said followers believed he healed people.
5. Jesus was arrested and crucified by Pontius Pilate.
6. Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea.
7. The tomb was found empty (75% of scholars believe this, so this is the only debated position among any of them)
Also, let's not pretend as though Dawkins/Hitchens/Harris/Dennett actually have anything worthwhile to say about religion. Dawkins rants about a conception of God that nobody has and badly misunderstands Aquinas. Hitchens just rants and doesn't engage the arguments at all. Harris rants without attacking an argument. Dennett attacks straw man arguments then rambles about how religion could've originated naturally.
Hi Amanda, thanks for all the work you put into your message. I appreciate your willingness to pass on what you have learned.
Do you know what creature the Bible is referring to when the word 'unicorn' is used? I know the first thing in my head is horse with a horn on its forehead. But the only translations of the Bible that use the word unicorn are more than 400 years old. Have you looked at a dictionary from that time period? Here's an entry from the 1828 Webster's dictionary "U'NICORN, n. [L. unicornis; unus, one, and cornu, horn. ]1. an animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros. 2." (http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/... Actually the word 'unicorn' comes from the Latin 'unicornis' which means 'having only one horn'. The Hebrew word '?????' (or transliterated 'r?'em') is difficult to translate because it refers to a creature that is likely extinct. Have a look at this quote from Pliny the Elder in his work 'The Natural History', Book VII, Chapter 31,"There are in India oxen also with solid hoofs and a single horn; and a wild beast called the axis, which has a skin like that of a fawn, but with numerous spots on it, and whiter; this animal is looked upon as sacred to Bacchus. The Orsæan Indians hunt down a kind of ape, which has the body white all over; as well as a very fierce animal called the monoceros, which has the head of the stag, the feet of the elephant, and the tail of the boar, while the rest of the body is like that of the horse; it makes a deep lowing noise, and has a single black horn, which projects from the middle of its forehead, two cubits in length. This animal, it is said, cannot be taken alive." (http://www.perseus.tufts.ed... So while likely the creature being referred to in the Bible was not the mythical Unicorn with a magical horn, we shouldn't dismiss the Bible because of our limited understanding of what the authors wrote about.
Now there are some things we can be sure about. The existence of the man Jesus is one of them. You will be hard pressed to find any serious historian who would question whether a man named Jesus from Nazareth did indeed live in 1st Century Judea, who performed wonders that baffled the people, who was tried and crucified by Pontius Pilate, and whose followers claimed was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven. You don't even need the Bible to find that information. You can glean that from Roman writings of the time, from Jewish records and writings of that day. These are the ones who were the enemies of Jesus so you can be sure that their words about Him are not brain-washed devotees or anything.
Jamie, I had posted a very long post filled with how and where I got my knowledge from and this site apparently deleted it. I refuse to rewrite it all. All those questions you have, have been answered if you'd do the research like I have. Hint, you wont find it written in the bible or asking for the knowledge to just pop in your head. You have to do research for months to fully understand it all. Good luck. I will not be responding anymore on here. 2nd hint-aron ra, Egyptology, new science magazines and books. But that's not what started me off. I learned on my own and confirmed what I learned by other sources and like-minded people. Good luck, the happy atheist.
Ray, I know for a fact you have been swindled by the religious blinders. You're all researching one place. A written document that was written so long ago. I'm not stupid or nieve. I know about everything deling with authenticity historical documents I watch stuff like that and I'm a collector and understand knockoffs. My father has a fake quarter he's aloud to have. I've seen knockoff documents signatures, ect.I'd like you to talk to David Fitzgerald who actively investigated the Historical Jesus for 10 yrs! He has a degree in history and was an associate member of CSER. Oh and I also forgot to mention all the priest who are turning atheist. They know what they're talking about when they say he doesn't exist. Just because you can document authenticity of literature doesn't mean the literature is fact.
As for "how we fall in love scientifically"-www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH Or just type in anything you have questions on and research research research. Impact that love has on our thoughts ect- the science of love www.youramazingbrain.org & preventdisease.com . Like I said, educate yourself. There's even more out there than what I list here.
Oh boy here we go. The first realization for me was as easy as spreading butter on bread. This is how it went as short as possible. ..if you want the evidence you ask for, read the books and websites listed below yourself. As a child I was told about Jesus and God. I seen pictures of them. I looked at the bible and read some of the scriptures and it did nothing for me. I had been baptized Lutheran but that is as far as it got for me. I collected unicorns and new they were in the bible. This is one thing that led me to believe out of faith but not logic the bible was true and god and jesus and santa and the easter bunny. ..you get the drift, existed. As a child I believed unicorns had existed because they were in the bible but because paleontologist hadn't uncovered the fossils, they called them mythical creatures. I had faith one day they'd uncover one. But I was not brought up with religion. I floated through a big portion of my life not even giving thought of god or Jesus or religion. It wasn't till I started my job when I heard about god and jesus spoken in ways that felt odd to me. I looked at these people as if they were mentally unstable. I heard and still hear people say he talks to them, he guides them, and he stands by them. I took to it like oil to water. I had a ruff patch in my life and desided to try this god prayer. I never heard, seen, or felt one thing. I never got an answer. I figured out the problem all my own like I always did. I just floated through life again. Happy at that. Thesun comes up, the moon orbits the earth and so forth scientifically explained. I heard the "Jesus told me what to do" a few months ago and it dawned on me that everyone who tells me what he says is nothing more than their own subconscious mind. And I had to laugh at how idiotic these I hear his voice in my head people sound. I found out we evolved, so there went Adam&Eve. And theories came to mind without research. I began researching. One by one I found answers. There's proof the flood never happened and the ark animal ratio is mathematically impossible. Question one thing, question more. I wondered why people had faith in lies and fictional stories. For I wouldn't as an adult. The more research I did the more bull I found. Unicorns are mythical but listed in the bible (I think 7 times). And stop covering it up with "they're bulls" because I have proof of bulls standing in the same picture created in BC. I have more than one. Some may depict this so call god as being a unicorn but not all scripts or pictures speak so. If god spoke through man to write the bible you'd think god would get his own creation right! Do you see dinosaurs in the bible? No. The years are even wrong! And don't say that the datings wrong because that would make noah even more ridiculously older. It's ALL fiction. So is Jesus fake? This is just me starting. I delved even deeper. I learned about the nasty crap in the bible and wondered why people would follow such horrible satanic crap and an ashole at that. I didn't write any sources down but it all lead to psychology and brainwashing. Do your own research. I delved into holiday origin celebration. It lead me to discover they all were pagan and had nothing to do with god orjJesus. Not even Christmas. It was all about the equinoxes and solstices. I reconfirmed it many times. Research it yourself. Then that lead me to a theory he was the sun. That lead me to facts some old religious pictures and scripts in the bible state he is the sun. And that lead me to Egyptian mythology. The same/similar stories are on the walls of pyramids. Which happened thousands of years before the bible were written. I confirmed this more than once. The more knowledge I obtain the more I know god and jesus is a myth. So by this time I realize I'm an atheist I start talking to atheists and realized they have the same conclusions and even more. Understanding the questions of existence! Why are we here! How did we get here! Evolution. Big bang. Why is there something instead of nothing! OH MY GOODNESS! You so don't understand anything about the big bang nor did any new research. If you want these answers, listen to my friend Aron Ra, everything he says I understand but he says it so much better than I ever could...'Theism is Not Rational' on YouTube. As for your memories. ...scientists explain how memories stick together www.sciencedaily.com/releas.... Another friend of mine, David Fitzgerald and his book; Nailed Ten Christian Myths Jesus Never Exist at All. Science books and magazines to help you understand the big bang-scientific american a beacon from the big bang; compliete history of the universe. To help you understand how we evolved-dk publishing 'Prehistoric life, the visual definitive visual guide; dk publishing Science, the definitive visual guide. Other books I purchased but haven't had the liberty to read are: Christ in Egypt the Horus-Jesus Connection by D.M Murdok, Christianity an ancient Egyptian Religion by Ohmed Osman, The Egyptian Origin of Christianity. (I heard on a YouTube video of a Egyptologist say, "if religion was a tree, Egyptians religion would be its roots." As we all know it's called Egyptian mythology. If roots of a tree are myth what grows from myth? More myth. Other books I haven't had time to read yet- The Mormons by David Fitzgerald, And Man Created God by Selina O'Grady, There was no Jesus There is no Godby Ralph Lataster, God and the Folly of Faith by Victor J. Stenger, The God Argument by A. C. Grayling, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, The God Virus by Darrel W. Ray Ed.D, How it Works book of Incredible Earth everything you need to know about the world we live in, God the Failed Hypothesis how science shows that god does not exist by Victor J. Stenger, Nonbeliever Nation by David Niose. One I did read- I'm an Atheist and you should be one too by Ragnar Gnalt. Further reading-Jesus Myth Theory- September 5 2014 rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jesus..., God doesn't exist historians reject tge bible story September 6 2011 internet article. God is imaginary.com. YouTube "hominid paleobiology" bones stones & genes: the origins of modern humans. Article on internet - science and religion: god didn't make man; man made gods. Another article online- proof god don't exist july 16 2014. And the most intelligent man who people make fun of because he's in a wheelchair claims there is no god. And with all that, that seals the deal for me. Your happy atheist.
HI Amanda, thanks for your input on this conversation. I would be very interested to find out more about the historians you have found who have been able to historically prove that Jesus did not exist. What evidence do they give that proves Jesus non-existence?
In all of your study, how have you come to understand the questions of existence? Why are we here? How did we get here? Why is there something instead of nothing? Science can help us a great deal in understanding our universe but there are other questions that go beyond the scope of observational science, don't you think? We can talk about biological processes that happen when people fall in love but there is no scientific explanation for how it happens or the impact that love has on our thoughts, attitudes and behaviours. Science can explain how the brain works with electrical impulses but it has never been able to explain the power of memories. How have you come to answer those kinds of questions for yourself?
Amanda you have not been doing your homework. I do not know what your sources are but they are not historical or scientific. There is a science which is used to determine the authenticity of historical documents and facts and Jesus Christ is the most carefully researched and authentic person in human history. Go and find some better and well accepted information and come to your own decision as to who Jesus is and what he has done for you.
Rising from the dead is impossible. That is a fictional story just as Noahs ark and adam and eve. Jesus has been historically proven to not exist by more than one historian. I myself have come across Jesus mentioned in Mythology books and websites. As always everyone can believe what they want but thats all its going to be, a belief.
Wow! This discussion was getting a bit heavy for me so thanks Amanda for coming in and adding your opinion gathered from the experience and study you mention. I guess we are all different in so many ways but most people (at least the ones I know) are keen to discuss a pretty general question about what is life here on earth all about. For some it is just about having a good time or getting famous or acquiring power or money. Others are more concerned with having good relationships, especially with friends and family. Then there are a good number who see that there is a purpose to our existence and try and discover as much as they can about this because they realise it matters. I have my opinion which is that life goes on after our physical death and so I choose to believe and have faith in the man Jesus who was God incarnate and who paid a very high price for me and others who want to follow Him into eternal life. That may seem simplistic to some but it helps me to live a fulfilled life as a follower of the only person who has ever risen from the dead. (A proven fact!)
Boy have you been brainwashed. I don't have much time to go in extream detail but here... I was brought up without religion and have experienced life and humans ect through seeing things as they are. I have studied much and know much. What I feel can be explained just fine by me. I can control & understand my feelings. I love my boyfriend because I trust him, he treats me with respect & we have alot in common so our conversation never runs dry. I get angry because of how people treat me. Feelings have been explained and discused long already and you can find many books on the subject. Heaven? Have you died and come back with proof of it. What you describe as my "pale philosophy" was a quick witty writing. A persons mind and there kknowledge is as big as there library. Mine is full of up to date history, science of all kinds books and magazines. What's yours? A bible? You trust in the words within a book copied off of Egyptians! ? You trust in the words of a control freak who wrote the book for slavery, selling your daughters, making women #2, telling them they can't talk, words of fictional stories that people still believe actually happened such as Adam and Eve and Noahs flood, make women marry there rapist!!! May I ask what is wrong with you religious folk? If I met a man & lets say his name is Jesus & he'd be kind & sweet yet had views such as these and tell me lies and speak like this...I love you you will love me too & you do what I say without ever questioning me or I will punish you with the worst torture you can imagine for the rest of your existence. ...I'd tell him to get lost. I've been in abusive relationships & recognize them very well. Ive read up on it and know it. Id tell the man to get lost, I don't need you.
I was curious to read the reply by Amanda that for her science is truth. Does she not have to admit that what she feels in her mind and heart for someone, say a feeling of love or anger, is measured by a different measure of truth and cannot be measured scientifically. Also that there are more things in heaven and on earth than in her pale philosophy? Religion, faith and reason are not proved or disproved by scientific formulas but by trusting the word of God in the Bible. Maybe she could try reading the Gospel of John and see how much truth she can find in it?
You are wrong about religion. I never had religion and I have morals ect. I never once learned abstract intellectual facts or issues of the heart, intimacy, meaning or destiny from the bible or religion. I've learned the content of the bible this year and to go with science is to go against religion. And those who are whole heartedly into religion will agree with what that means; it means you go against god so you will go to hell. And since in my facts I have found, everything in thr bible including the book itself is mythical. Adam&eve debunked. Noahs ark&flood debunked. Question one thing, question all. Jesus is hard to see within the bible if he even truely existed and some have there own proof of the nonexistance of him. With my recent findings, the original Jesus is Egyptian and the whole story in the bible are written on the walls of pyramids. And anyone who knows history, Egyptian gods are mythical. God is mythical. Science is facts.
DO
DAVID ORUKO
12 years ago
I have read the bible and listen to the teachings of both the historians and the scientist and come up with an opinion that both of them are saying the same thing but understanding the bible has been aproblem to them. So to understand the bible one need to accept the work of the holly spirit as this will make you understand the teachind of those who wrote the bible as to some extend science can not explain other things but the bible explaine everythin. The historians have dug deep into study of religion and have found that there is the truth.
Actually Dudely, other than the structural arrangement, the Hebrew Bible and the Old Testament are surprisingly consistent. Part of the value of the Dead Sea Scrolls is that they reveal how accurate the copies that we have today are compared with the scriptures used by the Qumran communities of the first century.
I know that the Qur'an has some differences but Mohammed acknowledged that the revelation he received from Gabriel showed that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures had been tainted and his was the only accurate reflection of the words of Allah. So it makes sense that his writings are different from the others.
It is true that the Bible does claim to be the inspired Word of God, and I suppose if that was all that we had to go on there may be reason to question that. But the Bible's claims are not the only thing we have to corroborate that exclusive title. First of all, we have the amazing historical accuracy of the scriptures. By no means have all accounts of the Bible been affirmed by archeological study but time and again, when the events, place and people of the Bible have been questioned subsequent archeological discoveries have uncovered the truth of the Bible. Examples of this are too numerous to list but a recent one is the existence of King David. Many scholars have questioned whether such a king ever lived and ruled in Israel but recent excavations in Jerusalem have discovered His palace with his name inscribed in prominent places. There was also the Tel Dan Stele which accounts the victory of a Damascus king over 'the house of David" which dates back to 850-835 B.C.
We also have the Bibles amazing prophetic accuracy. Specific events, kingdom developments and even specific people named are described hundreds of years before those events ever took place. The most stunning to me is Isaiah's prophetic words regarding how Cyrus, king of the Medeo-Persian Empire, would instruct the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem in 520-516 BC. Cyrus is actually named as the one who will be used by God to rebuild the Temple. This was written 150 years before Cyrus came to the throne, 80 years before the Temple was even destroyed. Again this is just one small example of the myriad of prophecies recorded in the Bible that have been fulfilled.
The most powerful confirmation of the Bible being the Word of God is the testimony of Jesus Himself. Jesus described Himself as the Son of God and confirmed that the Bible was the revealed Word of God. He quoted the Old Testament authoritatively, He affirmed the accuracy of the prophecies found in the Bible, and helped instruct His followers in their understanding of what the Bible teaches. So you have the confirmation from God Himself that the Bible is His revealed Word to the world so that we can know Him.
The purpose of the Bible is to help facilitate our relationship with God. It is one of the ways that God speaks into our lives. It helps us measure other revelations and ideas we have about God to assess their authenticity. It is a reflection of the nature of God's desire to be known. He does not hide Himself from us but instead shows Himself to us in a myriad of ways. So in His desire to be known by humanity He has given His Word into our hands. Many people have spent their lives studying the Bible but missed the fact that it is only a means to an end which is the chief pursuit of all humanity: to know God and to love, and serve Him alone. If a person's reading of the Bible is only to read a book and not to get to know God they will miss the power of its words.
And getting back to the point of this article, science is also a means of getting to know God: by studying that which He has created. But when scientists begin with the bias that there is no God they blind themselves to the wonder of seeing His hand in every aspect of the universe around them. Science will never give us a complete picture of God but it can be a wonderful way to discover the complexity of His creative personality. That is what our brains were designed to do!
First of all I would like to say that if your faith makes you a better, happier person than I am happy for you regardless of what you might beleive.
I have read the bible front to back on two separate occasions, so yes, I am very familiar with what it says.
When discussing the word-for-word accuracy of the bible the first thing that must be considered is that the first five books- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy- are actually in all three of the Abrahamic religions. In each of these religions the texts are slightly different. The major plot points are the same (all contain a 6 day creation, for example, but the Quran does not mention a rest day), but there are quite a few minor differences.
Now I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the Jewish faith, which had already existed for centuries before Christianity began, is somehow wrong and ONLY the words of the Christian bible are right. I have to consider that the differences are there because of the folly and the mistakes of the men who translated and transcribed it.
I also have to consider that God does not play games with us. He's not going around planting bogus evidence for us to find and question.
Finally, I have to consider that the only reason we know the bible is the inspired word of God at all is because. . . well because the bible says it is!
Given the above it seems reasonable that God does not expect us to live strictly by every letter between those covers. Heck, it's probably planned out that way as a lesson in relying on physical objects and words to provide you your faith.
He gave us a brain and He expects us to use it.
It is my opinion that the Bible does record exactly what God wanted those men to write thousands of years ago. The reason I have that point of view is not because of my faith in those men's abilities to accurately interpret and pen the words they received from God but it is all because of my faith in God. If He is the One who was able to create all things out of nothing, and if His purpose for creating all of this was so that humanity, as the ones who bear His image, could be in relationship with Him, would it not be important to Him and entirely within His ability to empower the writing of these words so that they accurately reflect His Character and His actions? Would not that accuracy be essential for us to be able to know Him as He truly is? For a God who is described to have accomplished the things the Bible claims He has accomplished doesn't that seem like a pretty simple task? And what does it matter the mode of transfer of those ideas and words? Why would 'word of mouth' be any less reliable when you have God invested in the accuracy of the message? And if God is involved in the initial communication why couldn't He -- why wouldn't He -- be involved in the preservation of that message as well?
So yes, I do believe in an actual 144 hours because the language is very clear when at the end of each component of Creation we read, "and there was evening and there was morning -- the first (second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth) day." (Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31) I think it is a mistake to take such specific language and interpret it as metaphorical representing thousands or millions of years.
And again, as I have said previously, when later scriptures use this first week of Creation as the basis for the importance of Sabbath rest, taking one day in 7 to rest from our labour and enter into the rest of God, I think it would be a misinterpretation to think that there were no connection with an actual historical event. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:8-11)
Does that make sense why I think that the words of the Bible are trustworthy? Have you spent much time reading and studying the words of the Bible to discover what they say?
@Jamie
Thanks for such a nice reply! It certainly deserves a good answer :).
When reading the bible you have to realize that you're not reading exactly what God said. You're reading the interpretation of what God said to people who lived between 1900 and 3500 years ago. Can you be TOTALLY sure that what is meant by "6 days" LITERALLY means 144 hours? Or is that just the word the mostly-illiterate Israelites chose to describe what was being said to them? Can we even be sure the person(s) God told this to even wrote it down? Maybe it was spread by word-of-mouth for a few generations? Maybe something was lost then? It certainly seems reasonable to me.
As far as "kinds" go evolution does not differ from the bible in this. I have often seen religious people have such wildly fantastical views of things like evolution simply because they see it as wrong at the outset and learn nothing about it, or only what they need to know to convince themselves it's wrong. In reality evolution also states that things reproduce after their own kind.
The difference is evolution says two populations of creatures of a given "kind" which reproduce by themselves will eventually be unable to reproduce with one another. This is not a radical statement in any way- simple genetic drift will cause this given enough time. These creatures will continue on separate from each other until humans come along millions of years later. Inevitably humans will see the differences and split them into different "kinds" even though they were once as close as brother and sister!
As far as the complexity of things around us go, yes, it's certainly unbelievable to think it all happened by chance. But there is so much else in this universe that's unbelievable to our limited human brains that it would be folly to throw out the idea simply because your personally think it's unbelievable. where would we be if that was our reaction to Germ Theory? Or heliocentric astronomy? Or anything that was revolutionary!
I think evolution deserves a good study on its own merits. I think it explains a lot about the world around us and I think it would be a very stupid of someone to deny that because of their own personal interpretation of some very old parts of the bible.
You are right Dudely, Richard Dawkins did follow up his comments about higher form of intelligent life seeding our world with the building blocks for life (and those comments were not edited out by the producers of Ben Stein's documentary and you can hear them yourself if you follow the video link I embedded). I still see that as a reach to try and explain where life began. If we push it to another life form where did their evolutionary journey begin? Were they too seeded by some other higher form of life? When does it actually start from nothing? Laws of physics demand that our universe had a beginning?
God absolutely could have created the universe so that life could eventually evolve. But He said that He created it in six - not seven - days. He also said that the creatures He made would reproduce each after its own kind (Genesis 1:24) which seems to stand in opposition to the idea that all life sprang from common ancestry.
We also know that the process for evolution would have been, as described by Charles Darwin, "only by very short and slow steps". And yet the irreducibly complex nature of life makes that kind of adaptation impossible. Every organ in the human body is made up of multiple components, all needing to exist in order for the organ to function. There could be no short, slow steps in their evolutionary development because they would not do anything until all the pieces are in place. That reality becomes even more magnified when you take into consideration the molecular biology and the complex adaptation necessary to change the DNA of any given cell. And evolution is supposed to be the simplest explanation for the origin of life?
I would be interested to hear more from you Dudely how you understand the relationship between science and religion.
Jamie, Richard Dawkins did NOT claim that life was seeded here by aliens. He simply said that it was possible. Right afterwards he even shored up what he meant by saying "but of course the aliens must have themselves evolved from something". I'm afraid Stein has a bad habit of selective editing which hurts his credibility dearly. So yes, Dawkins was still claiming that, at some point, amino acids came together inside a shell of lipids and started to divide, eventually producing complex life.
It could be that God created the universe in such a way that the improbable act of life being created out of basic chemistry WOULD eventually occur on Earth. There is no reason to think that is not how he chose to create man.
Ray, the reason that I believe that God created this universe in six -not 7 :)- days starts with the reality that God is the one who created all things. His authority over all things stems from that fact. It is no wonder that those who choose to be free from the authority of God reject Him as Creator. So God has clearly revealed that He is Creator. We have His testimony of that in the Bible but also science is discovering more and more conclusively that there is such a high degree of complexity at every level of nature that it is only conceivable that there must have been some intelligent designer who instigated it. I was intrigued by Richard Dawkins' answer to how life came to Earth. Recognizing the unsatisfactory answer of 'spontaneous evolution' his answer was that life was seeded here by some advanced alien life form (you can hear his comments from Ben Stein's movie "Intelligence Expelled"). Even Stephen Hawking, when talking about the beginning of everything, can only come up with "the universe created itself". It just seems to me that these are strained attempts at finding any possible solution except the obvious, God created all things! And if He is able to create all things what would inhibit Him from being able to create all things in six - not 7 - days?
Now knowing that God is a not One who hides, but freely reveals Himself to all He has created so that we are better able to worship Him for His greatness, why would He hide how He accomplished that? Why wouldn't He give us information of how He pulled that off? And He has. He laid it out in the first written account of His revelation. Not only that, but part of His instructions of how we are to relate to Him and relate to others around us (the Ten Commandments) includes the structure of our week based on His act of Creation, "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20:11)
Now the principle of Sabbath rest is a key element of our relationship with God. Jesus taught that humanity was not created to bring meaning to the Sabbath but that the Sabbath was created for our benefit (Mark 2:27). In Hebrews we read that as followers of Jesus we are called to enter into the Sabbath rest of the Lord "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest" (4:9-11). This idea is such a central aspect of our relationship with God it only stands to reason that the basis for it be solidly established in a real, historical event - namely the six days of Creation followed by the seventh day of rest.
As for how that meshes with the findings of science that seem to suggest a much longer process of development of the universe, I think it just reflects the extravagance of God's creativity. He was not One to just create the basic necessities of life but He went over the top in creating variety, beauty, complexity, and intricacy. He didn't just make nutritional supplements but created a vast cornucopia of flavours, textures, and aromas that make the nourishing of our bodies an experience of joy and pleasure. He didn't just create foliage to provide shelter, nutrition, clothing, and air but we have before us innumerable varieties and species of plants which we revel in daily. I mean you look at what is now only being viewed in space via the technology of telescopes like the beauty of the nebulae and the brilliance of supernovas. Those things have been there all this time, unviewed by human eyes for millennia and yet God put them there anyway--just because He could. And what about the beauty in the depths of the seas that we are only now just beginning to bring light to? And what about the complex intricacy and beauty at the molecular level? All this points to a God with limitless creativity. Surely, when He spoke the universe into being it was all done in an instant including all that necessitated the history of their development. When He created trees, did they have no rings? When He created Adam, was he only an embryo or infant? No the trees had rings showing years of development, and Adam was a grown man ready to carry out the mandate as steward of God's Creation. That is just the kind of God that He is and I can't help but praise Him for His excellence, His beauty, His extravagance, His perfection, and His love!
Psalm 104:1 Praise the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, you are very great; you are clothed with splendor and majesty.
2 He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent
3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants.
5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.
7 But at your rebuke the waters fled, at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;
8 they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them.
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth.
10 He makes springs pour water into the ravines; it flows between the mountains.
11 They give water to all the beasts of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
12 The birds of the air nest by the waters; they sing among the branches.
13 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers; the earth is satisfied by the fruit of his work.
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate-- bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart.
16 The trees of the LORD are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
17 There the birds make their nests; the stork has its home in the pine trees.
18 The high mountains belong to the wild goats; the crags are a refuge for the coneys.
19 The moon marks off the seasons, and the sun knows when to go down.
20 You bring darkness, it becomes night, and all the beasts of the forest prowl.
21 The lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God.
22 The sun rises, and they steal away; they return and lie down in their dens.
23 Then man goes out to his work, to his labor until evening.
24 How many are your works, O LORD! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.
25 There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number-- living things both large and small.
26 There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.
27 These all look to you to give them their food at the proper time.
28 When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things.
29 When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.
30 When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.
31 May the glory of the LORD endure forever; may the LORD rejoice in his works--
32 he who looks at the earth, and it trembles, who touches the mountains, and they smoke.
33 I will sing to the LORD all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live.
34 May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the LORD.
That's why I believe that the record in Genesis 1 is an accurate reflection of what happened at Creation.